Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
#21
from what i've seen most of the time LW lost aggro when the dps class start using their brutal force, which do tons of damage in very short time and cause aggro spike for the dps class, and once the boss start to move around warrior have a hard time to regain the aggro since warrior are melee and have to chase around before hitting, while the dps will constantly hit because they're ranged, one of the tips i give to the dps dealer is to stand near the warrior bunch so the warrior can regain the aggro quickly when they take it
 
Characters
Donut King
Platform
iOS, PC
#22
I’d also be interested in a passive sword rune like swashing, cAlled blademail with threat amplification and 10% return damage kinda like the return damage passive that some of the dungeon bounties spawn with.
 
Likes: Dawnfire

BukoNut

Master Cook
Platform
iOS, Android, PC
#23
stand near the warrior bunch so the warrior can regain the aggro quickly when they take it
Wouldnt do that fighting jingle ding. What works though is to not use skills. Do normal attacks and the tanks wont have to worry about losing threat.
 

Zazie

BRA Member
Royal Guardian
Characters
Zazie, Shiny, Skip, Auntie
Platform
PC
#24
Wouldnt do that fighting jingle ding. What works though is to not use skills. Do normal attacks and the tanks wont have to worry about losing threat.
I wouldn't stand too close at Jingle on my dps toons either, simply because of his nasty aoe coupled with a long stun.

If you use no feats at all, then it takes longer for the boss to die. The trick is to count to 5, maybe 10, inbetween firing off feats. (This is what we used to do long before the charts, when we had a weak warrior trying to tank.) This allows for aggro to dissipate a little bit over time, instead of constantly building alone.
 
Likes: BukoNut

Aernak

Lumineer
Characters
Aernak, Karametra, Yondalla
Platform
iOS
Last edited
#25
I wouldn't stand too close at Jingle on my dps toons either, simply because of his nasty aoe coupled with a long stun.

If you use no feats at all, then it takes longer for the boss to die. The trick is to count to 5, maybe 10, inbetween firing off feats. (This is what we used to do long before the charts, when we had a weak warrior trying to tank.) This allows for aggro to dissipate a little bit over time, instead of constantly building alone.
These are all good ideas to bandaid the problem here, but doesn’t it make much more sense for them to just readjust/increase threat for LW??

I can also see needing this type of bandaid in a situation like you mentioned with a weak tank, but IMO we should not have to resort to holding back dps in a battle with a suitable tank.
 

Rin

Priestess
Platform
Android, PC
#26
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I’ve listed reasons and suggestions from the old forums and I’ve exhausted myself. I listed accurate data and detailed suggestions and evidence. Change and suggestions seems like it will take awhile. Stay strong! I believe my current hybrid build is the best available tank build for dungeons. I can share my build ,but I don’t think it’d be any help.
I've seen you once in halloween event, and among lightning warriors, you seem to have the most stable aggro! Your aggro goes up twice as others'. But I didn't expect you were a hybrid o.o Thanks for the encouragement too! lol

Really interesting to see how every server has a completely different view of this matter. There was a very vivid conversation on EU1 about a month ago about actually priests having no purpose in dungeon when LW is around because tank can pull out so much more damage without having any concerns for his health. And by "much more damage" I mean going over 150k dps since no other class has an aoe spell of such a huge radius of effect that refreshes in just a couple of seconds.
Wow, that is interesting. Idk how or why it differs between servers, but I'm clear of LWs' situation in US3. There are several times I join in dungeon with high level players, and on charts, classes that take the top spots are hunters. Like, if there are 6 hunters on the group, 5 of them will be the top 5, something like that. And LWs will be on the 2nd tier after that. Even tho LWs have a quick cd aoe, the damage compared to other classes aoe is too small. Plus, other classes have non aoes that have even higher dmg than their own aoes.

These are all good ideas to bandaid the problem here, but doesn’t it make much more sense for them to just readjust/increase threat for LW??

I can also see needing this type of bandaid in a situation like you mentioned with a weak tank, but IMO we should not have to resort to holding back dps in a battle with a suitable tank.
I agree, there's a tank role so dps can go all out with their damage. Not to hold back dps. Plus, I don't think other players really care if they get aggro from LWs, because even if they get it, they know they won't die so why hold back. They'll just think to go all out to speed things up, especially in dungeon.
 
Likes: Donut

Erwalt

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
#27
Even tho LWs have a quick cd aoe, the damage compared to other classes aoe is too small.
Not really. e.g. Investing similar amount of the same stat points in hunter and warrior makes hunter's splinter shot doing 14k dmg while thunderbolt will do 11k. Considering splinter shot has a very narrow radius it can usually hit 5 mobs at most (5 mobs around the tank) doing total of 70k dmg for this example, and thunderbolt will do total of 55k for the same 5 mobs. The thing is, splinter shot will refresh in about 13s while thunderbolt with 5 mobs hitting the tank will be ready in no time making more casts and therefore more damage.
So even fighting 5 mobs lightning aoe will prevail. The confusion here might be because numbers might not be high when comparing numbers per hit, it's that damage per second (not damage per hit), because of large radius and spurring jolts reducing cd, make thunderbolt so powerful.
But where the lightning in dungeon really shines is, you are not fighting 5 mobs at a time, but +15 most of the time. That makes thunderbolt doing 11k dmg x 15 mobs = 165k of damage every few seconds. And considering you are hitting 15 of them at least 3 will crit (with 20% crit chance) so those numbers just go up. For the time other classes get their aoe ready for 2nd charge thunderbolt was cast at least 2-3 times. So now we are comparing 70k dmg of that splinter shot vs over 400k dmg in the same time.
Doing the same run with 2 lw will make the weaker one look bad in charts though.
Numbers are lower when you are comparing damage in description of every feat, but spurring jolts cooldown boost makes 2 feats ready to cast at any time which makes lw doing nice and steady dmg output (once I saw someone comparing glacial spike dmg with pummel - yes, glacial spike is nice but considering it's high cd you cast 4 pummels in between doing more dmg overall). But yes, single target feats of other classes are somewhat higher to compensate for this great aoe. Lw is great in dmg as long as you are fighting group of mobs, the more the better, to have short cd on feats. If one is interested just in dmg while tanking 1 on 1, it is still doable, just some tweaking is needed.
from what i've seen most of the time LW lost aggro when the dps class start using their brutal force
Easy fix - mind spark cast just before brutal force trinket, or watching tank and casting brutal force just after him
Plus, I don't think other players really care if they get aggro from LWs, because even if they get it, they know they won't die so why hold back.
This way they just deprive tank of utilizing his spurring jolts this way making the group as a whole doing less dmg overall.
And LWs will be on the 2nd tier after that
And it should be like that, because let's be honest, lw just can't die in dungeons so some ratio survivability/damage is needed. Atm i don't think any other class can come closer to soloing dungeon in the given time.
Blazing speed to be the first guy there cast fire burst (7second stun) wait 6.5 seconds cast frost nova(7 second stun) repeat fire burst again . Group should be dead by then.
There you go, atm it is like that, every class can be built to overcome lack of another class and do the content. From this example of yours it is clear that not even a priest is needed. As it is atm gold dungeon time is possible with any class combo of 5 players, and if you are picky about the group, gold is doable with 3 players (before the nerf 2 players were enough).


For group play, making every single class unique requires some serious game changes and huge player base so there isn't lack of any class at any time of the day. Imo the only way it would work is something like this:
1. Tank able to survive max 3 direct hits from mobs. Tank is doing max of 10% of damage dps can do, no self heal, holding aggro
2. dps just doing dmg, no self heal, can survive 1 direct hit from mobs
3. Priest doing 10% dmg of damage dps can do, can survive 1 direct hit from mobs, can cast shields and full heals just on tank, on dps and on himslef able to cast only slow overtime heals.

This way you get very nice grup gameplay and high dependance on eachother:
- if healer dies everyone is dead
- if tank dies dps must jump in and save the healer taking the bullet untill tank is back or resurected
- dps and healer never able to tank because of low heals
- group consisting only tanks and priests wouldn't work as they would do no dmg
- group consisting only dps wouldn't work as they would die instantly
 
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
#28
Easy fix - mind spark cast just before brutal force trinket, or watching tank and casting brutal force just after him
That's not a fix, don't know if you play fire wizard or not, but mind spark refresh all skill cooldown, most likely you gonna do brutal force+ deadly tactics then do full combo then mind spark, and repeat that once more, which cause tons of damages and threats, while hunter have retreat, shadow priest doesn't os don't think this suggestion help.


And once again since warrior is melee once boss start running around regaining the aggro is almost impossible unless the dps know what to do. At the same times most of the boss annoying spell is melee only especially stun and slow i think a lot of us know how bad this is to the point that stun from wizard mob was removed in the past. I don't think it should be removed, but instead make an equal playground, like something that only hit everyone outside a certain area around the boss. Another idea is to make adds not attacking the same target as the boss, this case is most visible at Pharaoh Ranubis fight where most of the minions just staring at the tank waiting till there are less then 6 attacker, why not make the minions spread and attack everyone... something like Belxur and Gaamkira or like Fenela where the ranged have extra task to watch out for the spider, there's also another idea but that gonna be a long post so i think i'll post it at a new post later

For group play, making every single class unique requires some serious game changes and huge player base so there isn't lack of any class at any time of the day. Imo the only way it would work is something like this:
1. Tank able to survive max 3 direct hits from mobs. Tank is doing max of 10% of damage dps can do, no self heal, holding aggro
2. dps just doing dmg, no self heal, can survive 1 direct hit from mobs
3. Priest doing 10% dmg of damage dps can do, can survive 1 direct hit from mobs, can cast shields and full heals just on tank, on dps and on himslef able to cast only slow overtime heals.

This way you get very nice grup gameplay and high dependance on eachother:
- if healer dies everyone is dead
- if tank dies dps must jump in and save the healer taking the bullet untill tank is back or resurected
- dps and healer never able to tank because of low heals
- group consisting only tanks and priests wouldn't work as they would do no dmg
- group consisting only dps wouldn't work as they would die instantly
The hard thing to realize something like this is to find the sweet spot where every class is needed but at the same time keep the ability to solo most content just fine. But I do want to see changes on heal either priest heal or self heal, because now you either die really fast or don't die at all
 

Erwalt

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
#29
That's not a fix, don't know if you play fire wizard or not, but mind spark refresh all skill cooldown, most likely you gonna do brutal force+ deadly tactics then do full combo then mind spark, and repeat that once more, which cause tons of damages and threats, while hunter have retreat, shadow priest doesn't os don't think this suggestion help.
Yes, was thinking about the somewhat similar rotation but different timing since group play should really involve some tactics imo. Wiz should not start full out asap, but leave the tank to utilize onslaught bonus to build massive portion of threat. Once the threat is there wiz can go with that rotation, where casting mind spark would remove portion of aggro built with the 1st trinket combo + attacks.

Actually, I think that might be the major problem here - starting full out too soon. Tank can build up over 1 mil of threat in no time (fighting groups this number goes over 2,5 mil in a matter of few sec) if not interrupted and once that amount of threat is set up it's very unlikely that anyone will suddenly do that amount of damage to steal the aggro. Ofc if tank starts with pummel and is not even done with that move while suddenly all the wizards around are starting to nuke their full out dmg combos, boss will obviously run around leaving the tank unable to regain control (he never even had a chance to build one) until all the rotations are done or wizards are dead.
Ah, yes, I've seen some threat loss in mid of fights when fighting mobs that slow attack speed for melee (ice and similar) but here a priest has to step in to cure the tank asap so he can continue building aggro. Or the whole dps group, being not affected by this debuff, has to slow down a bit since adjust their dmg output to these new circumstances since situation is obviously not ideal with absence of priest.

Idk, I still think no one should be able to go full out whenever he wants to in a group content, playing the same combos like when running solo, but to adapt his gameplay according to capabilities of the group he is running with, jump in to cover possible flaws of some weaker player and to strive for what is the best for the group. I might be in minority here though.
 
Characters
Donut King
Platform
iOS, PC
#30
Right now in the Christmas event zone, to maintain aggro, I’m staring at my skills and constantly tapping, I wish I had more time to appreciate the animations lol. The work to maintain aggro in a large scene like EZs is tiring.
 

Erwalt

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
#31
Ez is weird when lots of players there tbh. I saw more than once a friend of mine being near me on my screen while on her screen she was far away across the Grintcha's room. And my guild leader, on her screen she was still fighting the boss with 15% health left while her husband sitting next to her had the boss dead on his screen. Go figure!
 
Likes: Donut
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
#32
Yes, was thinking about the somewhat similar rotation but different timing since group play should really involve some tactics imo. Wiz should not start full out asap, but leave the tank to utilize onslaught bonus to build massive portion of threat. Once the threat is there wiz can go with that rotation, where casting mind spark would remove portion of aggro built with the 1st trinket combo + attacks.
I played both tank and dps, so i think i know what the other class want from each other, and i'm not gonna start with full power, but at some point at the fight when the elder hp is starting to drop low you'll want to start going full power because the lower their hp are the more annoying they become. Actually losing aggro once in a while is a good challenge for warrior and the group, this way the warrior also have to try and find an ideal build between defense and attack, and the group have to cooperate well, what I don't like is how hard it is to regain aggro because of the boss moving around and how bad the mechanics for when warrior trying to hit a moving target.

Idk, I still think no one should be able to go full out whenever he wants to in a group content, playing the same combos like when running solo, but to adapt his gameplay according to capabilities of the group he is running with, jump in to cover possible flaws of some weaker player and to strive for what is the best for the group. I might be in minority here though.
I have a mixed feeling about this, while i agree that on group content we should think more, but i prefer to think because of some different game mechanics such as Fenela this way a coordination is needed, and sometime actually force you to go all out to prevent the spiders from reaching the boss, or when Valax ghost appear where you have to kill it quickly to pop up the shield so I'm holding back because i know i need the fire power for something and those skill cooldown take a long time to refresh. It's different on event zone where there are no group mechanics basically we're fighting a punching bag, while i still try to hold back my dps, why do I need to hold back? Does 10 or more DPS class holding back worth the spurring jolt of a single warrior?
 

Erwalt

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Last edited
#33
It's different on event zone where there are no group mechanics basically we're fighting a punching bag, while i still try to hold back my dps, why do I need to hold back? Does 10 or more DPS class holding back worth the spurring jolt of a single warrior?
Agree, but I don't find event zone to be a real representative of a group play strategy anyway. That was my opinion even before I found out people might have completely different situations on their monitors (whatever the reason for this is). It's just about socializing there with people being new players using only 1-2 feats, others on autoattack chatting. In that case I'd just go up there in front lines and go full out standing next to tank so the boss doesn't run across the screen killing people with possible aoe along the way when switching aggro. I can see scaled up Jingle might be a problem for some but I find him not able to kill a player with +40% magic resist and fully buffed health. If he still is a problem, oh well, hold back for that one boss, he will die anyway.

It might be harsh to say but we all have different skills and it is unreasonable to expect a mediocre tank to be able to cover up for the damage of the great dps who times his attacks perfectly. Really great dps needs a great tank. It is just as sad seeing tank building over 2 mil of threat for a dps doing 10k of threat. And it is not even about the gearing, but really about timings of feats in those "elite" groups.
Most of the time I'd really suggest adapting to your tank, if needed hold back a bit. Even if there is a need to go full out, when that burst is over tank should be able to get aggro back, but the boss must stand still! One day you will end up with a tank that will allow you to fully unleash your power with no consequences.

Regarding regaining control, just yesterday a friend logged while Grintcha was below 30%, walked in and got full aggro in like 5 sec. But the boss was standing still! Never let tank running around trying to catch a boss. Stand still, take 1 hit (you take hits anyway when running around) and allow the tank to get control.

The game even gave tanks a tool for those situations where running for the boss is needed - charge. Boss switches aggro and runs away, tank charges, stuns him and regains aggro. Seems perfect, until it isn't. Bosses build resistance towards stun over time so tank even losing aggro 2-3 times in the fight wouldn't have much problem to get it back because all of his stuns would work. But dps and priests make this tool obsolete because they keep spamming their stun feats whenever possible building boss' immunity towards stuns. It doesn't even matter those feats on purpose do very little damage, everyone just keeps spamming them because "hey, this feat is refreshed".
Spamming unnecessary stuns around the tank this way are doing so much harm, first for the reason stated above and the second one being - tank needs to take as many hits on himself as possible, the more damage he receives the more damage and threat he does (spurring jolts). Imo dps stuns should be used just in those moments when aggro is stolen, to help the tank reach the boss, and for situations where lots of mob spawns are after dps and he has to save himself from those.
 
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
#34
I've so enjoyed reading all the posts here! You all have different opinions and have remained respectful and thoughtful while answering. Thank you!!

AWESOME, really really AWESOME!!
 
Likes: Zazie
Platform
iOS, PC
#35
I am still seeing lightning warriors losing aggro to dps toons daily. I’m really frustrated that the devs have done nothing to boost the threat generation of LWs since the rebalance happened many months ago. I understand not increasing damage, but threat generation needs to be boosted. Until this problem is resolved, LWs will continue to be the most unnecessary (and unfun) class for team battles.
Still happening, still feel the LW is now a usless class. Still feel no one cares how frustrating this is to the LW of the game. Still feel it is useless anymore to voice an opinion because only the numbers tell the truth and we players can either live with it or leave because we apparently don't know what the numbers are saying we should be able to do. Still feel you screwed with something that was not broken. When I see wizards, hunters and priests tank just as well as a LW, makes me wonder why you still have a warrior class in game at all.
 
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
#36
I found out by asking a lot of questions that what is happening is that the other classes big feats (yes all 3 range have the big feats with short cooldown time) which allows them to repeatedly throw those huge feats that grab aggro and keep it.

The problem with that small cooldown ( some like 2-3 seconds) is that when they throw those powerful feats one after the last, they grab aggro and then will run from the bounty, which then causes all the other toons in the fight to then run after the bounty while trying to fight. It creates some chaos and gets some of the AOE range fighters to die.

Because of the super short cooldown time, they can throw the same feats over and over and not only take but keep aggro from the warriors. I do hear a lot of grumbling from warriors that this last "balancing" caused the same situation we had a while ago. The comments are "Why bother being a lightning warrior when wizards, hunters and priests can step in and be tanks". And when you ask any of them they reply, "yeah we know and are happy we can take the aggro, and please don't report it because they'll take it away."

I would ask they take a look at the cooldowns on the huge big damage feats.
Edit to add.... My bad... I meant for warriors! Warriors either need more threat added or shorter cooldown on their big damage feats.

https://forum.villagersandheroes.co...ighting-warriors-are-struggling-to-keep-aggro
 
Platform
PC
#37
I found out by asking a lot of questions that what is happening is that the other classes big feats (yes all 3 range have the big feats with short cooldown time) which allows them to repeatedly throw those huge feats that grab aggro and keep it.

The problem with that small cooldown ( some like 2-3 seconds) is that when they throw those powerful feats one after the last, they grab aggro and then will run from the bounty, which then causes all the other toons in the fight to then run after the bounty while trying to fight. It creates some chaos and gets some of the AOE range fighters to die.

Because of the super short cooldown time, they can throw the same feats over and over and not only take but keep aggro from the warriors. I do hear a lot of grumbling from warriors that this last "balancing" caused the same situation we had a while ago. The comments are "Why bother being a lightning warrior when wizards, hunters and priests can step in and be tanks". And when you ask any of them they reply, "yeah we know and are happy we can take the aggro, and please don't report it because they'll take it away."

I would ask they take a look at the cooldowns on the huge big damage feats.

https://forum.villagersandheroes.co...ighting-warriors-are-struggling-to-keep-aggro

Short cooldowns are not the problem and nerfing all the other classes to fix LW threat is not the answer. No one but a LW can tank. When another class is tanking they are approximating what a real tank does, usually with pots or a healer close by, or they are higher level than the target.

Also, I take offensive at your statement that 'when you ask any of them..' any equals all, and I can not believe you asked all dps players on all servers this question, or even an insignificant portion of them. This assertion is a problem because rather than sticking to the facts the message gets clouded with obvious overstatements and personal appeals.

The problem comes from LW 's design which is insufficient to effectively play their role. There is a significant and persistent problem with threat generation and that is where the focus should be.

I suggest less threat generation from damage and more from calls, with more built into the LW gear itself. This would lower dps players chances of taking aggro in a group but would not effect the game play when a tank was not available.
 

Geronemo

BRA Member
Characters
Geronemo
Platform
PC, Steam
#38
It seems to me that when we have an equally equipped LW, the dps do not pull aggro from them. The only problem we seem to have is when we have lower level LW's or no LW at all.
 
Likes: Zazie

Zazie

BRA Member
Royal Guardian
Characters
Zazie, Shiny, Skip, Auntie
Platform
PC
#39
Another point to make is that if dps want to reduce their threat, they have tools available to do so....hunters and wizzies, at least, do. (And shadow priests can choose NOT to hit shadow orbs (or use that feat less often), lest it trigger an explosion of damage.) Retreat necklaces for the hunter and mind spark for the wizzie. My nature hunter has (and sometimes uses) the retreat necklace. (She didn't touch that feat once during the last round in the event zone, when we had two fury warriors and a hybrid warrior. Those toons couldn't substitute for a tank any better than I could, so there was no reason to hold back!) My ice wizzie probably uses her mind spark necklace more often, but primarily because it boosts her masteries. But in event zones, many months ago, when she accidentally stole aggro & didn't want to keep it, she used it, and it worked! :)

If there's no lightning warrior present, and my nature hunter is fully buffed, how is having HER substitute for a tank any different from having a fury warrior tank? It's still a situation like any group combat, where things will go more smoothly if there is good communication about who will hold aggro & if the people who are most likely to tank, steal aggro, or what-have-you are aware of the following: Their role in the group, who the other key players are, the risks of the feats they use, and if they have a plan of action at the ready. It's largely about group dynamics, no matter whether a lightning warrior is present or not. And a group that works well together once will generally continue to work well together repeatedly, all other things being equal.

And I wholeheartedly agree with Kitty, and I really like her idea of less threat generation coming from damage and more from warrior calls. I think that what needs to be analyzed is how threat is generated (specifically, to what extent damage output creates threat) and whether all lightning warriors really do have the tools they need to manage aggro. There are some lightning warriors that I haven't stolen aggro from in a very long time! Said LW's are mostly level 90 toons, and I'm certain that they're using at least as many sockets as my hunter (if not more) AND that their gear is all the same level as their combat (mine's not) and is just as good as mine, if not better.

However, if I'm on my hunter, in a level-scaled zone, and there's a low to mid level lightning warrior present whose gear simply isn't as good as mine, level scaling won't cause them to suddenly have a maxed out weapon like mine, to have 3 Ultimates from talent points, to have at least 2 green chevrons in all the uncommon stats on the character page (and as many as THREE chevrons in up to THREE uncommon stats!), and to have a high amount of all but about 2-3 of all the epic stats, too! In short, they won't be able to hold a candle to all the threat my toon can produce. It's a simple fact. My nature hunter is a level 82 toon who has completed 4 rebirths, and her gear is all epic and legendary, and the majority of it is also fully socketed (with the exception of necklace, rings, and trinkets.) When I've invested so much more in my toon than they have in theirs, unless how threat generates is changed, my toon will always strongly overpower a newer lightning warrior unless she just autoattacks and occasionally uses her one weakest feat that generates the least threat, simply because of how much damage she can generate, how many feats she has, and how much expertise she has on her gear.

It's hard to really get a direct comparison between builds since Starfall...to figure out why some LW's rarely have issues holding aggro, why certain wizzies/hunters/priests' builds are quite so strong under certain circumstances......

I'm not convinced that changing cooldowns is the answer. I think that would be trying to change issues that primarily occur in group combat, while penalizing players who prefer running solo. And as a player who only parties up for event zones, high level elder kills, and a once-in-a-blue-moon dungeon run, I really don't want to be nerfed just because of issues with threat generation.

Sorry, I tried my best to be neutral and as unbiased as possible, but I'm hungry, and it's time for dinner. :p
 

Donut

Swindle
Characters
Donut King
Platform
iOS, PC
#40
On a threat log base in ez, after Grinchta, my dps as a warrior was 2.5 mil but my threat output was also at 2.5 mil. Not sure if that’s supposed to be correct because I would think threat would be higher than dps for warriors or am I wrong? Not sure how the algorithm works.
 
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