About threat again.

[Giruv]

On a threat log base in ez, after Grinchta, my dps as a warrior was 2.5 mil but my threat output was also at 2.5 mil. Not sure if that’s supposed to be correct because I would think threat would be higher than dps for warriors or am I wrong? Not sure how the algorithm works.

as far as my observation threat is almost equal total damage, the problem is threat goes down over time because of that having threat equal to damage in a pretty long fight isn't possible except for LW, also at Grinchta there are summoned elf which could be added to your total damage, and the aggro you get from damaging them will be gone a few sec after they died, so that might be the case

Sometimes case like this also annoys me at event zone so the tank got aggro from a boss and a small mobs which is written 1.6M, which actually is 1.3M from boss + 300k from small mobs(the number is approximation) , so while i maintain my threat at 1.4-1.5m, the boss goes after me because of this "misinformation",

 

[IrishElf]

I am not sure which feats it is, I've been told 2 different ones by wizards which they see that using the feat(s) repeatedly they can grab aggro from any warrior. I've watched and even saw those who say it doesn't happen to them as they lost aggro. And until the player stops using that feat, the warriors can't regain aggro.

I do not say this to cause any class to be "nerfed", I have never been an advocate of nerfing!! But if a feat or being able to use a huge dps feat repeatedly because of super short cooldown causes this new weaker and nerfed version of the lightning warrior to lose aggro, it needs to be looked at.

I was told specifically that manafire and scorching burn are the feats which have short cooldowns and they both can pull and keep aggro for any wizard who wants to.
Also found this from the old forums:
"Ainz Ooal Gown

A wizard can tank fairly ez with 14 seconds of stun from fire burst and ice aoe stun along with 40% cauterize and 15% prof of lifesteal. You can cycle the two stubs and they can run every 7 seconds. A wizard with adequate defense can hold long enough in a dungeon trial to not need a tank. It takes less than 2 minutes to kill the dungeon elder."​

​

But this isn't only happening in event zones, it also happens at the Elders.

 

[Zeph]

My wizard must be weak as it cant pull aggro from the LW, even at lvl 90! I suggest to give LW feats more aggro rather than nerf wizards again! I know that nerfing wizard wasn't what you suggested but we never know what they might decide.

 

[SKAAVVEEK]

While mana fire has insane damage output, it comes at the cost of a lot of mana. In the long run it is not sustainable unless the player is swallowing mana potions left & right. I can see how this ability would take aggro from lightning warriors, as well as shadow priests that cast DoTs and detonate in rapid succession (another mana drain).

I still believe that warriors should have a better version of rally, that instead of raising defenses, would impact the threat of their allies or something of the sort.

 

[IrishElf]

While mana fire has insane damage output, it comes at the cost of a lot of mana. In the long run it is not sustainable unless the player is swallowing mana potions left & right. I can see how this ability would take aggro from lightning warriors, as well as shadow priests that cast DoTs and detonate in rapid succession (another mana drain).

I still believe that warriors should have a better version of rally, that instead of raising defenses, would impact the threat of their allies or something of the sort.

I think this is the best solution! I have seen chaos erupt when a wizard (or other class for that matter) can pull aggro and that scares them and they run all over with the bounty trailing behind and others start dying. Nothing the Warrior does can break the aggro pull if the wizard (or whichever class) keeps throwing the feat (and like Skaa said keeps downing mana potions which I know some do).

 

[Donut]

IMO, The only battle cry that would work is a cry that improves threat generation from lightning feats. fE: “ Taunt” improves threat generation by 40% produced by lightning feats for 15 seconds.

Damage and threat go hand to hand as I can remember the denerf of warriors was from threat generation 1.2lsd to 1.6lsd. (Lightning skill damage?)So if a warrior did 1k dmg with lightning bolt they would produce 1,600 threat?

 

[RedEye]

And you could use the same idea with the wizard spells. You could have a threat multiplyer of .6 so fi Manafire does 1000 pts of damage, it only generates 600 pts of threat. This way, nothing and nobody is nerfed but it helps to reduce threat for those spells.

 

[Donut]

Reduce threat roar wouldn’t work because what if there are multiple lightning warriors with it. Wouldn’t they reduce each others threat? All classes deal the same amount of threat through dmg with the exception of lightning warriors and lightning feats no?
As well as fury warriors because they have 15% reduction in threat regeneration.
The mana spark to reduce threat is nice and all, but the cool down is a little long. 3 minutes. Maybe would work well with ez but let’s say dungeon where you use mana spark on the second stage boss and then you can’t use mana spark on the key master stage.

 

[Giruv]

The mana spark to reduce threat is nice and all, but the cool down is a little long. 3 minutes. Maybe would work well with ez but let’s say dungeon where you use mana spark on the second stage boss and then you can’t use mana spark on the key master stage.

Mind spark is a spell that can cause a lot of damage so reducing the cooldown is not a good idea, I even think that's the spell that make fire wizard can steal aggro if they went all out with it. I just think the design on mind spark is just bad, it reduce aggro at the same, it increase your damage output by a ton that make the threat reduction effect "nullified".

Damage and threat go hand to hand as I can remember the denerf of warriors was from threat generation 1.2lsd to 1.6lsd. (Lightning skill damage?)So if a warrior did 1k dmg with lightning bolt they would produce 1,600 threat?

It's the other way around lightning bolt and thunder bolt both does threat only, with the talent it does 50% of the threat as damage, the denerf was increasing it from 33% to 50%

But this isn't only happening in event zones, it also happens at the Elders.

Well I'm back to my previous opinion, there is no mechanism yet that force a dps class to hold back they're damage. Also there are no content in the game right now is hard enough that a tank, dps and healer needed at the same, any combination of two will be sufficient, even soloable including elder 85 and dungeon(only able to get bronze solo tho)

 

[Donut]

Mind spark is a spell that can cause a lot of damage so reducing the cooldown is not a good idea, I even think that's the spell that make fire wizard can steal aggro if they went all out with it. I just think the design on mind spark is just bad, it reduce aggro at the same, it increase your damage output by a ton that make the threat reduction effect "nullified".



It's the other way around lightning bolt and thunder bolt both does threat only, with the talent it does 50% of the threat as damage, the denerf was increasing it from 33% to 50%


Well I'm back to my previous opinion, there is no mechanism yet that force a dps class to hold back they're damage. Also there are no content in the game right now is hard enough that a tank, dps and healer needed at the same, any combination of two will be sufficient, even soloable including elder 85 and dungeon(only able to get bronze solo tho)

If other classes can create threat through dps, doesn’t thunder strike and charge create threat through dps with a 35% bonus?
I’m going to do a practice dps/thread test with training ground dummy tomorrow. Something is wrong with the algorithm if my dps is equal to threat again. One target.

 

[Giruv]

If other classes can create threat through dps, doesn’t thunder strike and charge create threat through dps with a 35% bonus?
I’m going to do a practice dps/thread test with training ground dummy tomorrow. Something is wrong with the algorithm if my dps is equal to threat again. One target.

You're right about threat suppose to be higher than your total damage for LW, but you have to check quickly because it will also drop over time even when you're still fighting, so in time it will become even or lower than your total damage which will be pretty quick(just around 15 sec of fighting it will already be even), if you want to check it, its better on monster that you can kill in 1 or 2 hit, and keep the threat tab open and then switch to total damage

 

[Zazie]

Mind spark is a spell that can cause a lot of damage so reducing the cooldown is not a good idea, I even think that's the spell that make fire wizard can steal aggro if they went all out with it. I just think the design on mind spark is just bad, it reduce aggro at the same, it increase your damage output by a ton that make the threat reduction effect "nullified".

The mana spark to reduce threat is nice and all, but the cool down is a little long. 3 minutes. Maybe would work well with ez but let’s say dungeon where you use mana spark on the second stage boss and then you can’t use mana spark on the key master stage.

With the Starfall patch, mind spark was renamed and the cooldown for it was drastically increased. (Same with retreat.) There was an outrage then, and many players either quit or changed classes. It would be adding insult to injury to increase the cooldowns further for either retreat or mind spark. (Increasing cooldowns is one of those things that tends to make players very unhappy and make classes "no fun to play anymore.") I feel that the cooldown for mind spark should stay as is and that players need to simply get out of the mindset of feeling that they need to use every single feat as soon as it refreshes, when they're in group combat! If you use the big feats every time they become available to reuse, you run a risk. An important part of group combat is learning to assess the situation and figuring out how your actions affect the group. It's a sign that your build is good when you have the ability to steal aggro. That is a sign of strength. But if you're dps and you don't know how to reduce aggro too, then you're not as strong of a team player as you believe yourself to be!

My ICE wizzie uses mind spark if she's in an event zone and has stolen aggro from a weak tank (generally either a fury warrior or dps toon.) It's perfect for my toon for situations like that. And yes, I tend to use the feat very sparingly in group combat (unless there's a strong LW present, who I know I won't be able to steal aggro from) and I back off (just autoattack) at the same time, if I want to lose aggro. It's my emergency release button, mostly, and for those purposes, I can make it work in the way I want it to.

My little 4X-rebirthed ice wizzie has yet to steal aggro in the dungeons. It's such a non-issue that I don't even have to worry one bit about it! (Of course, I'm pretty picky about the groups I run dungeons with & don't run them often. If a group's not viable to at least get silver & I suspect there will be many deaths, I don't run it. My choice.)

Also there are no content in the game right now is hard enough that a tank, dps and healer needed at the same, any combination of two will be sufficient, even soloable including elder 85 and dungeon

I would be very cautious about making statements like this. Keep in mind that even though YOU may be very strong in situations like the level 85 elders with no healer present, the person(s) who you are helping are not! They are far more vulnerable, despite how strong other members of the group may be. As such, they're the most prone to unnecessary deaths that could easily have been avoided if you had assessed the situation differently. Just because content is easy for you since your gear is all the same level as your combat, you've rebirthed 5 times, and have used umpteen sockets to max out your gear doesn't mean that everyone else has done so. What you see as too easy to require more than just two out of the three classes can be unbelievably challenging to a different player.

The game is NOT for the elite only!

 

[IrishElf]

Again, because warriors talking about threat and aggro always brings out the wizards who always get into the mix with "don't nerf us"
Let me say clearly... I am not advocating reducing wizards in any way! Nor would I be happy with that! This is asking to fix Warriors! Just like we asked about last time big changes were made to lightning warriors, the lightning warriors because of the increased abilities of the wizards are again unnecessary. These are things we notice during especially the boss fights.

Warriors have always known they are supposed to be upfront and personal with the boss. They are there to keep the boss in one place, to hold their attention while the range fighters throw all they have at them, but the way it is now some of the range fighters are able to gain and keep aggro. And we don't mean the occasional time when a boss might wander over to one of the other, what we mean is that once the other classes start to throw those huge feats that get the aggro, we lightning warriors struggle to get the aggro back again, if at all (especially if the wizards don't stop throwing those feats repeatedly). What usually happens is the [wizard] will start to run all over trying to stay out of the boss's range, and that makes everyone else have to trot along behind (and usually causes many deaths along the way). We just usually give up and trot along because no matter what we throw at the boss, we can't compete because of the feats, buff's and boosts they are using.

Just yesterday I saw one of the top warriors on US1 give up on warrior and switch to wizard during a dungeon run. And that person using the wizard (along with another wizard as secondary) tanked the entire dungeon run.... even with a lightning warrior there. This seems to be what some other people who play warriors are talking about, that we are at the same place we were at with updates where warriors damage was reduced a few times. I see people saying I don't like my warrior anymore. And those who are saying that they have no trouble keeping aggro, probably don't play up against those who can and do use all the buff's and boosts and repeatedly use those feats which can and does take and keep aggro.

 

[Kitty the Hunter]

Warriors not keeping aggro has nothing to do with other classes stealing aggro. I know it can look that way but the real issue is wars are not getting and keeping aggro. Whatever another class can or will do with their class is not and should never solely be the basis for making changes to improve another class. The issue is not being able to counter whatever another class does. If we start looking at other classes instead of focusing on wars and how they can be improved we are in danger of ruining other classes in favor of wars and ultimately will be discussing this again in the future because other classes need that damage to survive.

Lets please keep on topic and focus on wars and how their aggro abilities can be improved. I think the best thing we can do is significantly lower taking aggro with damage for the other classes. Holding aggro is what makes a LW unique, and there should be ways for them to hold and keep it that are not easily available to the other classes. In groups without a LW, another player will still be able to 'tank' but they won't favored as a tank over LW if one is available. We can also improve the ability of LW to take aggro in other ways such as adding this to an ultimate or to calls.

 

[Donut]

So here are two pictures with threat output ThunderStrike ( lightning feat) vs Phoenix Strike ( Fury feat) The threat output between the two are equally proportionate to each other where as a feat that has “threat generation” in them deals 2.5-4x more threat.

Thunderbird strike deals around the same amount of threat as a fury skill, but as the talents and buffs say damaging lightning feats should produce an additional 35% from Shocking Strikes and 40% from Stormpower.
Here is a photo of the threat system actually working for lightning warrior.

adding threat generation to thunderbird strike and charge would be enough to fix the warriors and they should be able to hold threat a lot easier. lightning warrriors only have 3 skills that produces high threat.
This fourth picture is to show how much threat other classes are producing. It's 1:1.

ALL other classes can do 2.5x damage than Lightning warriors. My 95.8K threat from thunderbird strike will not be able to compete with another lv 90 who can do 150,000+ damage/threat repeatedly. I only have 3 skills that can compare in threat with them, but even lightning bolt with threat won't reach what they deal in damage/threat. They can have 7 -8 single target spells that deal high dps.

 

[IrishElf]

So here are two pictures with threat output ThunderStrike ( lightning feat) vs Phoenix Strike ( Fury feat) The threat output between the two are equally proportionate to each other where as a feat that has “threat generation” in them deals 2.5-4x more threat.

Thunderbird strike deals around the same amount of threat as a fury skill, but as the talents and buffs say damaging lightning feats should produce an additional 35% from Shocking Strikes and 40% from Stormpower.
Here is a photo of the threat system actually working for lightning warrior.

adding threat generation to thunderbird strike and charge would be enough to fix the warriors and they should be able to hold threat a lot easier. lightning warrriors only have 3 skills that produces high threat.
This fourth picture is to show how much threat other classes are producing. It's 1:1.

ALL other classes can do 2.5x damage than Lightning warriors. My 95.8K threat from thunderbird strike will not be able to compete with another lv 90 who can do 150,000+ damage/threat repeatedly. I only have 3 skills that can compare in threat with them, but even lightning bolt with threat won't reach what they deal in damage/threat. They can have 7 -8 single target spells that deal high dps.

Good job!

 

[IrishElf]

Warriors not keeping aggro has nothing to do with other classes stealing aggro. I know it can look that way but the real issue is wars are not getting and keeping aggro. Whatever another class can or will do with their class is not and should never solely be the basis for making changes to improve another class. The issue is not being able to counter whatever another class does. If we start looking at other classes instead of focusing on wars and how they can be improved we are in danger of ruining other classes in favor of wars and ultimately will be discussing this again in the future because other classes need that damage to survive.

Lets please keep on topic and focus on wars and how their aggro abilities can be improved. I think the best thing we can do is significantly lower taking aggro with damage for the other classes. Holding aggro is what makes a LW unique, and there should be ways for them to hold and keep it that are not easily available to the other classes. In groups without a LW, another player will still be able to 'tank' but they won't favored as a tank over LW if one is available. We can also improve the ability of LW to take aggro in other ways such as adding this to an ultimate or to calls.

This is a general threat topic, so all classes can post and I don't see any really going off topic.

Warriors do originally get aggro if they hit first. However if another player such as a wizard (with many elder levels like those I run with) gets aggro and keeps it by using their threat feats (as they would and should because they got them), then yes the warrior has no chance of regaining aggro.

No, no one is advocating taking aggro from the other classes here. And that would be a mistake because of solo hunting.

The point is, we are asking for the threat and damage that was nerfed to be returned to the warriors.

 

[Giruv]

The game is NOT for the elite only!

sorry if i make it felt that way, but i want to say is there basically there are no penalty or any need to follow how your role supposed to be, any dps class can just go all out without a care in the world because even if they steal the aggro nothing gonna happen to them, and if you're following the post by hard i don't mean something that one shot everyone, but mechanism wise where every role have something to do, even tho Venela is lvl 80 elder and Pyrrus is lvl 75 elder they're much harder than 85 boss if you're trying to solo, because of the mechanism where you need to help each other no matter how strong you are if you're stoned at pyrrus without a priest you're done, if you're fighting venela alone you can't really kill the spider and at the same time keep her away from spider, which make the fight very tricky, at the current state of the game most of the time its just like button mashing without having to think about anything

 

[Aernak]

So here are two pictures with threat output ThunderStrike ( lightning feat) vs Phoenix Strike ( Fury feat) The threat output between the two are equally proportionate to each other where as a feat that has “threat generation” in them deals 2.5-4x more threat. View attachment 748
View attachment 749
Thunderbird strike deals around the same amount of threat as a fury skill, but as the talents and buffs say damaging lightning feats should produce an additional 35% from Shocking Strikes and 40% from Stormpower.
Here is a photo of the threat system actually working for lightning warrior.
View attachment 750
adding threat generation to thunderbird strike and charge would be enough to fix the warriors and they should be able to hold threat a lot easier. lightning warrriors only have 3 skills that produces high threat.
This fourth picture is to show how much threat other classes are producing. It's 1:1.
View attachment 751
ALL other classes can do 2.5x damage than Lightning warriors. My 95.8K threat from thunderbird strike will not be able to compete with another lv 90 who can do 150,000+ damage/threat repeatedly. I only have 3 skills that can compare in threat with them, but even lightning bolt with threat won't reach what they deal in damage/threat. They can have 7 -8 single target spells that deal high dps.

Thanks for doing this research! I hope the devs will look at it, and respond!