Characters
BashaDrake, Elmeti, Knytro
Platform
Android
When the dungeons were first introduced, they were supposed to be an alternate way to earn xp and gear for everyone. While HOS had some problems, it worked that way for most people. Lower levels could usually run with groups without too much trouble and the 80+ crowd had a way to earn some much needed xp for the grind. Several groups could all run together, even if Gold wasnt really achievable often, silver was pretty common. Things have drastically changed. Now groups are small and selective, often even secretive in their runs.
There have been other posts about dungeons, so I'd just like to recap some changes that have been brought up that could really make the current dungeons popular and useful- instancing and challenge levels.
I dont know how hard it would be for the Devs to implement, but having options for the dungeons would really help.
#1: Open instance, standard challenge: The way the dungeons were prepatch.
#2: Closed instance, standard challenge: Prepatch difficulty, single party access.
#3: Open instance, Heroic challenge: Anyone can run the dungeon, much harder challenge.
#4: Closed instance, Heroic challenge: Single party access, much harder challenge.
The Heroic tier doesnt have to have insane loot and xp. Perhaps 15-20% more coin and xp, with a Gold run offering a 5% chance of a Legendary drop.
I hope this leads to constructive conversations and a dungeon system everyone can enjoy!
Thanks.
 

Zazie

BRA Member
Royal Guardian
Characters
Zazie, Shiny, Skip, Auntie
Platform
PC
I think that having these options with instancing and a choice of difficulty level would please everyone! I like these 4 suggestions and feel that they would help make the dungeons more appealing to a wider variety of players. :)
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
I like the idea, may be instead of a small chance of legendary drop, a dungeon currency will be better so the difference for standard and heroic mostly is the dungeon currency, and then may be you can buy very expensive legendary box,red darrig key or any other stuff with it. I think most that will do the Heroic one is those that don't really need exp and gold anymore and i don't really like the randomness, so with currency at least its more certain like you can get the legendary weapon after 20 gold run or something like that
 

Hawklin Lane

Warrior
Characters
Also Tolin and Myrleena
Platform
iOS, Android
Instancing seems to carry well in other games where one can choose to go in with whomever (accepting whatever progress they have already made) and just go all out. With scaling, hopping into a run in progress may affect the players already in the zone but I am not sure how that actually works so maybe it just won’t affect things that much. For example does just being in the zone cause scaling math to include waiters and participants? Or is scaling only ordered when a mob/boss is targeted?

On the other side, dedicated private parties won’t feel pressured to have everyone involved (per se) nor would they have to not accept party invites or otherwise be perceived as being rude as they would have their party ready and it would run on its own instance and the super competitive can simply have that instance to themselves while every one runs a server wide event or whatever.

The game I am thinking of is a while ago but still active and good in its own way. What I did like was the instancing as they not only had the instancing choice but they did have a difficulty scale. It was simply a scale up of the numbers in the mobs and nothing like what we do here, but that seemed to be a good compromise between hard core min/max ers and the more casual player.

Since scale is already programmed here, it may be just an issue of standard scale versus heroic scale such as 1.5 or 2.0 x standard for the difficulty choice.

As for the rewards, dungeon currency has come up before and it is a good idea. Maybe not necessarily dungeon only coin, which creates another shop, but maybe red darrig coins for use at the darrig shop, which is still maintained as a separate way to purchase some items like toys and outfits as well as the darrig versions of the potions. Not sure what the current payoff is as darrig coins are only in the darrig chests (I believe) but if coins were at least slightly more available, would people use them for those items? Especially free players that can’t get crowns or choose not to pay for crowns?

Possible issues:

local chat would also have to be instanced to avoid confusion between instances. Not sure if this is a thing yet but I remember event zones where we could have two instances and local chat included both channels. I think maybe I remember the vale had separate locals but I don’t recall.

Server lag: would extra instances create slowdowns and how many channels could be open at once? I don’t think instances would cause the slow down as we have ch1 and 2 during certain events and these seem to flow ok for the most part, except the elder boss adds. Big thank you otters for helping with that, btw.

Instance interference: if a party enters and another player enters the portal or whatever starts the instance, at the same time, is there a way to prevent lag or other issue from causing the players to be inserted in an incorrect order so they end up in the wrong instance by mistake. Say if the character clicks on a relic stone or such, then that action creates the instance. Since the leader is a party no on else needs to touch the stone, the party is gathered together in a script and ported to instance A. Then the next player to touch the stone gets instance B.

It was very rare in game A but the occasional character would end up in a separate instance from his party because as each character would have to enter, the program would take them in the order the requests were receive by the server and instance them accordingly.

If only one character needed to click and the script can see there is a party already formed it could gather all 6 and send them along without incident. Then the next player or party leader and so on.
 

SKAAVVEEK

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Now that dungeons have been around for nearly a year, feedback such as what the OP provided is vital going forward.

The developers seem interested in expanding upon the dungeon system, and our input will hopefully mold any upcoming improvements and additions.

Here are my thoughts and suggestions based on my personal experiences:

1 - One size fits all

This is the wrong approach. It is simply impractical to attempt creating a zone which is built for all levels, difficulty preferences and sizes. Each individual dungeon must have its own unique constraints which are clearly labeled. The two dungeons that are currently live are already quite distinct. Heroic Halls of Salvation is possible with large groups of mixed levels. Heroic Red Cloister on the other hand seems to be reserved for small groups of higher levels. The issue is that these are not expressly stated anywhere. It's simply how they were designed.

Solution: Dungeons should be instanced with requirements. Each dungeon has a small hub chamber where players can congregate to form PUGs. Once the player has formed a party they can speak with the dungeon master and travel to an instance. Different Dungeons will have their own requirements:
  • Party Size: Small (3 - 6), Medium (6 - 9), Large (10 - 12)
  • Difficulty:Easy, Intermediate, Advanced, Hardcore
    • If possible design it so each dungeon has the above difficulties which can be selected prior to entering the instance
2 - Return on Investment

Dungeons are expensive. I burn through over 30 mana potions each run and still have to drink a premium full mana potion occasionally. Not to mention breakfasts, mana rolls, drams and fish steak. These items last for an hour and yet a typical dungeon run is around 20 to 25 minutes. Unless you plan to run for the full duration, it is a fairly big waste. Then there is also the fact that simply assembling a team is a challenge in and of itself. What if the run fails? All of that goes down the drain. And if it's successful, do the rewards feel worth it? Based on a recent Discord poll, players do not believe so.

This is why the rewards should be greater than the investment. As a capped player do I really care about experience? Nope. Is gold important? It helps cover the cost of the buffs, but there are easier ways to earn gold. Is the gear worth it? At first sure! However, not for long. Within the scope of our current gear structure, dungeons simply don't have much of a replay-ability factor. This is due to the ease with which players can obtain the highest quality gear in the game. If I earn an epic item every time I place gold in a dungeon run then I will soon run out of reasons to continue running. The incentive to run only lasts until the player has acquired it.

Solution: Honestly the gear system needs to be overhauled for greater depth. You get epic gear so easily now... top it off with some reinforcement runes from crafting and you're done. Only then can proper rewards be utilized. I imagine rare artifacts for appearances, RNG based gear drops from bosses with special abilities, hidden chests with exclusive recipes, gear rewards with random perks and gear set bonuses and more.

3 - Design

Heroic Red Cloister is leagues above heroic halls of salvation in terms of challenge and entertainment. Whereas HHOS feels like a slog, HRC has complex mechanics, requires leadership, quick thinking, tactics and planning. This is what the dungeons need, but that is very hard to do with the timer constraint. How do you plan cooperative content when you have to give it a deadline? The point of cooperative content is to strategize and communicate. This is difficult to do when you have to continue pushing forward constantly due to the ticking clock.

Solution: Make the timer an optional leaderboard feature for competitive players. The fastest times get their names on the scoreboard. Transition the dungeon from a timer-based scenario into mechanic-based encounters. For example, players pulling levers simultaneously, scouring the zone for hidden enemies or keys, capturing hallways and chambers as enemies spawn in waves, solving puzzles through trial and error or clues etc. I have some examples in my recent thread here (Scroll down to the Raid section) Add some random elements and modifiers such as zone-wide effects and you'll keep groups on their toes.
 

Roak

Squirrel
Platform
PC
Last edited
HRC has complex mechanics, requires leadership, quick thinking, tactics and planning
This is what I like about it.


that is very hard to do with the timer constraint. How do you plan cooperative content when you have to give it a deadline?
This is what I hate about it.

In the last part of the dungeon,before the final boss,I have to lead my team,tank,pull bounties throught tight doorways,have my questbook open to look at the bounties we need to hit while also looking at the map to see where they are,all while the clock is ticking.Holy Hellmann's....
 
Characters
Tiffa, CyberElf
Platform
Android, PC
Now that dungeons have been around for nearly a year, feedback such as what the OP provided is vital going forward.

The developers seem interested in expanding upon the dungeon system, and our input will hopefully mold any upcoming improvements and additions.

Here are my thoughts and suggestions based on my personal experiences:

1 - One size fits all

This is the wrong approach. It is simply impractical to attempt creating a zone which is built for all levels, difficulty preferences and sizes. Each individual dungeon must have its own unique constraints which are clearly labeled. The two dungeons that are currently live are already quite distinct. Heroic Halls of Salvation is possible with large groups of mixed levels. Heroic Red Cloister on the other hand seems to be reserved for small groups of higher levels. The issue is that these are not expressly stated anywhere. It's simply how they were designed.

Solution: Dungeons should be instanced with requirements. Each dungeon has a small hub chamber where players can congregate to form PUGs. Once the player has formed a party they can speak with the dungeon master and travel to an instance. Different Dungeons will have their own requirements:
  • Party Size: Small (3 - 6), Medium (6 - 9), Large (10 - 12)
  • Difficulty:Easy, Intermediate, Advanced, Hardcore
    • If possible design it so each dungeon has the above difficulties which can be selected prior to entering the instance
2 - Return on Investment

Dungeons are expensive. I burn through over 30 mana potions each run and still have to drink a premium full mana potion occasionally. Not to mention breakfasts, mana rolls, drams and fish steak. These items last for an hour and yet a typical dungeon run is around 20 to 25 minutes. Unless you plan to run for the full duration, it is a fairly big waste. Then there is also the fact that simply assembling a team is a challenge in and of itself. What if the run fails? All of that goes down the drain. And if it's successful, do the rewards feel worth it? Based on a recent Discord poll, players do not believe so.

This is why the rewards should be greater than the investment. As a capped player do I really care about experience? Nope. Is gold important? It helps cover the cost of the buffs, but there are easier ways to earn gold. Is the gear worth it? At first sure! However, not for long. Within the scope of our current gear structure, dungeons simply don't have much of a replay-ability factor. This is due to the ease with which players can obtain the highest quality gear in the game. If I earn an epic item every time I place gold in a dungeon run then I will soon run out of reasons to continue running. The incentive to run only lasts until the player has acquired it.

Solution: Honestly the gear system needs to be overhauled for greater depth. You get epic gear so easily now... top it off with some reinforcement runes from crafting and you're done. Only then can proper rewards be utilized. I imagine rare artifacts for appearances, RNG based gear drops from bosses with special abilities, hidden chests with exclusive recipes, gear rewards with random perks and gear set bonuses and more.

3 - Design

Heroic Red Cloister is leagues above heroic halls of salvation in terms of challenge and entertainment. Whereas HHOS feels like a slog, HRC has complex mechanics, requires leadership, quick thinking, tactics and planning. This is what the dungeons need, but that is very hard to do with the timer constraint. How do you plan cooperative content when you have to give it a deadline? The point of cooperative content is to strategize and communicate. This is difficult to do when you have to continue pushing forward constantly due to the ticking clock.

Solution: Make the timer an optional leaderboard feature for competitive players. The fastest times get their names on the scoreboard. Transition the dungeon from a timer-based scenario into mechanic-based encounters. For example, players pulling levers simultaneously, scouring the zone for hidden enemies or keys, capturing hallways and chambers as enemies spawn in waves, solving puzzles through trial and error or clues etc. I have some examples in my recent thread here (Scroll down to the Raid section) Add some random elements and modifiers such as zone-wide effects and you'll keep groups on their toes.
I would also add having several leveled dungeons where players would have the option of playing with others of their level group (lv 1-20) (22-30), (31-40), (41-50), (51-60), (61-70), (71-75), (76-80), (81-85), (86-90), (91-95) or having a mixed level grouping.
 
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