Rin

Citizen
Bottom line - dungeons are no longer fun.
This. Thank you.

They made the combat difficult because a lot of players want it to be difficult. But I think devs went overboard.

They strengthened monsters (health and dmg)
They nerfed players (return rates, skill dmg, useful skills like single pulls and deaggro)
They removed fusions (even if others dont know how to utilize these, they are still helpful)

I'm all for a challenging dungeon. But for me that means, harder monsters(sure, but no need to nerf players I guess), and harder/trickier mechanics, just like red cloister dungeon, with all those new mechanics, that's what we mean by challenging. Not using premium items 10 times in one run, then what, get little rewards in exchange. Not at all fun.

I still can't believe they nerfed players just because there are players who can "easily" get 9+ ratings. Dear devs, those players didn't easily get 9+ ratings, they obviously worked hard for it. Also!!!! Not all players are as dedicted as them. So what about the casual players? We're destined to suffer the very difficult combat now, especially in dungeon. Not at all fun.

Please devs, fix the dungeons, fix the combat. Thank you.
 

Arjuna

Grand Priest
Characters
Arjuna
Platform
Android
I like that the game was made harder. It was too easy before.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what the devs do next as "you people" will complain about anything and everything.

Such is life in the era of participation prizes. Bunch of babies! ???
 

Roak

Squirrel
Platform
PC
They strengthened monsters (health and dmg)
They nerfed players (return rates, skill dmg, useful skills like single pulls and deaggro)
They removed fusions (even if others dont know how to utilize these, they are still helpful)
Add to that the Houses perks been removed.
 
Platform
PC
I like that the game was made harder. It was too easy before.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what the devs do next as "you people" will complain about anything and everything.

Such is life in the era of participation prizes. Bunch of babies! ???
Wow...there's no need for all of that. "You people" - some of us have been playing since the game started. We do NOT complain about everything. We are simply pointing out that for the majority (at least on US2) of the players, the dungeons are no longer fun. And, we're trying to explain why.

I do agree to a point - the game WAS too easy before. And yes, it's good to make it harder - however, the 'tweak' went too far in the other direction. Devs have no way of knowing this unless we tell them.
 

dustbunny

Squirrel
Platform
iOS, PC
Last edited
We did a run yesterday with a good group, two zingas up and a great possibility for gold as many were veteran players of halls and knew what they were doing. Now, missing the ability of a tank to pull a single bounty has hurt, but what hurt the most was on the second or third bounty we encountered the whole group was stunned back to back 4 or 5 times, something I have NEVER seen occur during a dungeon run. There was no way to win after that because of the deaths it caused and the inability to regain momentum. SO, not only have our toons been nerfed, but the bounty's have gotten stronger equaling a very a frustrating zone.

ETA: I am not from the era of participation prizes. Way to old for that. I play the game to have FUN. If I wanted a challenge, I would try to keep up with one of my grandkids for a day, without feeling like i've been run over by a mack truck the next day :)
 

Bobo

BRA Member
Platform
PC
Maybe the dungeon is just not good for large groups. Simple level scaling probably doesn't work well for large groups of players with big gaps in toon levels. From my limited experience with dungeons (I seldom do dungeons to be honest, precisely because i hate all these issues) a small well-coordinated group seems to do better than a large group. In another MMO that i used to play, dungeons are smoother because they are instances that have a cap on the number of players in the party doing that instance. A party of 6 toons close in level and well-defined in their roles (tank, healer, dps) rely on teamwork to beat that instance. I don't see this teamwork working as well in V&H dungeons because of the level scaling and unlimited group size. Maybe that's why Lei Zong in US2 could post that a group of China players completed a gold run in the new dungeon? Due to smaller group size with better team work? Just my two cents' worth of opinion, like i said i'm not an experienced dungeon runner.:p
 
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Life Spirit

Grand Priestess
Characters
Life Spirit
Platform
PC
I like that the game was made harder. It was too easy before.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what the devs do next as "you people" will complain about anything and everything.

Such is life in the era of participation prizes. Bunch of babies! ???
Anyone who wants the game to be harder can do so without making it more difficult for every single player. Just wear common and uncommon gear for example if you want more of a challenge. Or don't use buffs, potions, or food.

The nerfs will just cause the game to lose casual players like myself and decrease their revenue stream in my opinion. I'm fine with having difficult, challenging dungeons. But I don't think making simple bounty runs tough to solo now is a smart financial decision. But either way, the free markets will determine if it was a wise decision or not to make the entire game more challenging.

Sorry if us "babies" have a different opinion than you and don't like the increased monster damage across the board, the useless condemn feat now, the loss of housing perks, and the other nerfs that made the game harder now.
 

Rin

Citizen
I like that the game was made harder. It was too easy before.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what the devs do next as "you people" will complain about anything and everything.

Such is life in the era of participation prizes. Bunch of babies! ???
I agree that the game was too easy pre-patch. But now, it's too difficult. Do you think it's fine using a lot of premium items every dungeon run? That's not what challenging is. That's what expensive is. Also, not everyone in this game are hardcore players, a lot here play casually too, so something that's manageable for you may not be manageable for us.

I know my previous post sounds like a whining kid, but you taunting others like that sounds even more so. And I bet you're talking to yourself too when you used "you people", I've noticed your fair share of complaints here in forums. But that's fine, cause this is a forum, we're here to discuss, and all of us should be welcome to express complaints as long as it's constructive and has sense.
 

Sarah Otter

Mad Otter Games
Developer
Okay, I'm not going to lie: the giant box of tissues cracked me up. HOWEVER, this is a reminder to keep posts respectful. We want to hear everyone's opinion on this topic, so please continue. We are reading this thread, don't worry, we're listening.
 
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Dawnfire

Great Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Stormborne
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
I'm honestly very suprised. I'll have to join the minority for this one. I ran tons of dungeons before the patch and quite some after it. I'm a Fury warrior on EU1. We usually have 3 guilds running them together, with some random joiners every now and then. We are by no means an elit group, but most of us are decent folks, with decent gear and builds (most of us are lvl 90). I can't even remember the last time we did not do gold. We usually run anywhere from 4-5 to 10-12 people. We usually have 1-2 warriors, 2-3 priests, rest are wizard/hunters. We rarely have a tank, and honestly it is not very much needed.

HoS before patch: Without zing we usually had ~2-4 mins to spare for gold
HoS after patch: Less time to get gold, but still very much able (at worst around 1 minute to spare for Gold)
Red Cloister: We usually have around 3-5 mins to spare for Gold, I find this dungeon harder due to random spawns and less experience, but also more fun. Easier to get gold timewise, I think this place needs to buff the two elder boss fights a bit, to be more mechanic intensive

So yes after patch HoS is definitely harder to achieve gold rank, due to the fact of stat nerfs, house perk removal and enemy health/damage boost. But it is still very much possible. And here is the catch. I do believe Gold rank was meant to be achieved by people who put thought and work into their builds and rotation. Which means not everyone is Gold capable. Not every setup will perform well in there (important note: every subclass can do well in dungeons, every single one). I don't know what kind of people play on other servers, how many low level people are you running with. What feats you use. What gear do you have. Do you use consumables? There's a lot of small things that contribute to a fast and efficient run. And if one server is capable of doing it, other should be able to as well. Again sometimes we do have people who are not max level and we just carry them, but we still do gold. And we also have people who are max level and hardly contribute. There's only so much one player can make up for, so if majority of the people running it are not gold capable, you just won't make it. The way I see it is either you make "private runs" with those whom you trust to do well or help those who are lacking in some area to improve (and I believe this is what happened on EU1 over the months since dungeons were released). The other option is that you dumb down the difficulty so almost anyone can do gold (but then what's the point of a ranking system that rewards someone who worked weeks to perfect their setup the same as someone who came there with a total random setup and using 2 feats). I'd rather see people improve their play, but this decision ultimately falls into the hand of the developers.

I do hope nobody takes offense, as I do not mean any, I'm just really curious how is it that some servers don't struggle and others do

Edit: I saw premium items mentioned as necessary. It's not true for us. I think I probably used 1 or 2 Voltan's in the 100+ runs I did (yes as a melee non tank fury). It was always Blasting that got me. I do occasionaly use the bottomless heal potion, but that's free for everyone
 

Bobo

BRA Member
Platform
PC
How about having different levels of difficulty for the same dungeon? Like easy, medium and hard. Players can choose the difficulty level according to their preference. Casual players play the easy dungeon and players who like a challenge can go for the hard one. Of course rewards should be differentiated according to difficulty level.
 

Agber

Citizen
Characters
Agamemnon,coober,catweazel, +1
Platform
PC
Dungeons should be hard. Legendary items should not be doled out like candy, which is what has been happening for an extended period now.
Many players make a choice to focus purely on raising combat levels, really ignoring the other aspects of the game. That is a tough task. If you have a tank, for example combat lvl 88, but who has gear, buffs, boosts in the high 70's range or lower, it would be very difficult to keep that tank alive, particularly, if the healer had similar discrepancies.
The game has changed considerably over the years, for a long time now the bosses and mobs have been nerfed. Players have been considerably strengthened, and I believe that it began with the introduction first of the leg. crafting, i.e. griffin and mammoth items, the introduction of crafting mastery and the streamlining of gathering and crafting.
If players have difficulty, after the update, for running dungeons then they should look closely at the more problematical stats in their build, and try to address any shortfalls
 
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dustbunny

Squirrel
Platform
iOS, PC
So, what I am beginning to hear is, Dungeon is possible, in gold, IF you have mostly level 90 players, who have spent the time to buff up their gear and get good stats, running the zone also. SO, what about all the other players? Is dungeon now becoming a place for only high level players to succeed in with gold runs and all other toons should expect to be happy with only silver or gold? Even if, before Earth and Sea, they WERE getting gold.
 
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Agber

Citizen
Characters
Agamemnon,coober,catweazel, +1
Platform
PC
All that is required, are players who have taken effort to keep their gear etc. on a reasonable par with their combat lvl's. I think that when zone scaling is in effect, the foe scales to combat lvl, but the real strength of allies lie in the quality of the gear which is equipped and the items which are consumed. Any players who have a great discrepancy, in this regard, will die, that is unfortunate but true.
 

Kitty the Hunter

Villager
Platform
PC
All that is required, are players who have taken effort to keep their gear etc. on a reasonable par with their combat lvl's. I think that when zone scaling is in effect, the foe scales to combat lvl, but the real strength of allies lie in the quality of the gear which is equipped and the items which are consumed. Any players who have a great discrepancy, in this regard, will die, that is unfortunate but true.
It is not only the gear but also the rebirths and to some extent the guild they are in, or friends they have. Dungeons, and to a great extent combat in general, is becoming more challenging and leaving out the casual players. I have no problem with some content reserved for players to be challenged to the utmost, but not content meant for all players over level 30-35. If the game wants or needs more challenging content it should be added as side content and clearly presented that way.
 

Dawnfire

Great Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Stormborne
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
So, what I am beginning to hear is, Dungeon is possible, in gold, IF you have mostly level 90 players, who have spent the time to buff up their gear and get good stats, running the zone also. SO, what about all the other players? Is dungeon now becoming a place for only high level players to succeed in with gold runs and all other toons should expect to be happy with only silver or gold? Even if, before Earth and Sea, they WERE getting gold.
If you refuse to put in the work, why would you deserve to get gold tier reward? Obviously this depends on other players too, to do the same, but a few great players can make up for the lack of a few not so well prepared ones. If you are a silver tier player, accept it or adapt to become better. It's possible for others to do gold, why shouldnt it be possible for you either?


It is not only the gear but also the rebirths and to some extent the guild they are in, or friends they have. Dungeons, and to a great extent combat in general, is becoming more challenging and leaving out the casual players. I have no problem with some content reserved for players to be challenged to the utmost, but not content meant for all players over level 30-35. If the game wants or needs more challenging content it should be added as side content and clearly presented that way.
True rebirths obviously play a role in this too. Higher tier is more easily achieved with more rebirths (and honestly, I think this is okay, those people really put the time and effort into their characters). It's an interesting thing as to when should you do dungeons. You have access to them early on, but obviously at low level you lack so many talents/feats/gear that it makes it a lot more challenging to finish. Again higher level player -> more time invested -> better results. But I"m with you on this one, maybe some warning should be given as to when they should try their hands on it (or just make them available later during your 1st playthrough, like after Pyrrus). Dungeons are a side content in my reading. They are not necessary to progress in the game at any point, they are just a good source of gold/xp and potentially gear. They do not have any exclusive rewards
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
We did a run yesterday with a good group, two zingas up and a great possibility for gold as many were veteran players of halls and knew what they were doing. Now, missing the ability of a tank to pull a single bounty has hurt, but what hurt the most was on the second or third bounty we encountered the whole group was stunned back to back 4 or 5 times, something I have NEVER seen occur during a dungeon run. There was no way to win after that because of the deaths it caused and the inability to regain momentum. SO, not only have our toons been nerfed, but the bounty's have gotten stronger equaling a very a frustrating zone.

ETA: I am not from the era of participation prizes. Way to old for that. I play the game to have FUN. If I wanted a challenge, I would try to keep up with one of my grandkids for a day, without feeling like i've been run over by a mack truck the next day :)
I was in the dungeon a couple days ago and saw many die with 2 or 3 back to back AOE's right off the bat at the first bounty. Instead of just continuing on and those who died waiting for the next run, there was much complaining about wanting everyone to restart on the heels of having used 3 rezzies and multiples of hp potions and mana potions already. I left instead of restarting but I think the above mentioned run might have been the redo after I left.

I also saw something similar in zones other than the dungeon zone. The stacking of AOE's by more than one mob or bounty that stun my character multiple times in a row with no let up to use a hp potion, to the point she dies or almost dies. I don't think that was intended to happen and might be an unintentional side effect of you beefing up the bounties and mobs.

So I ask the devs to take a look at the sequences of attacks by bounties and mobs in the game as a whole and please eliminate the "stacking of big killing AOE's and stuns". This did happen one other time when you added Corkle Woods, the mobs and bounties there were doing the same thing of stacking the stuns which killed us repeatedly. That isn't fun.

Thank you for listening.
 
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