Characters
Layla Littlenymph
Platform
PC, Steam
#41
Co-op games are all about the PvP and have become somewhat popular of late. The reason they are classed as 'cooperative play' is that they require you to play within a group of players in order to compete with another group. Despite the fact that they are a form of PvP, few, if any, have any form of dueling. No direct player versus player content. The simple reason for that is because the character classes in those games are designed to be complimentary. You can not build a team of only one class and hope to compete effectively against a team of combined classes. By the same token, those games are not designed to allow one class to duel another class, one on one. While they are complimentary when used together, they are not balanced for individual one on one competition. The balancing aspect of a co-op is in making each class an equal comtributor to the whole of the group. How that class might stack up against any other individual class is not a consideration because individual duels are not an aspect of game play.

The same thing that makes it difficult for a co-op to offer one-on-one PvP applies to V&H. While V&H is not a co-op in the modern sense of the word, they employ the same cooperative element within their class designs. Each class in V&H is capable of solo play but they are at their best when combined with at least one other class. The same design that makes the classes complimentary of one another is at the core of why it would be difficult to establish one-on-one PvP duels. It would require each class to be completely rebalanced in order to be effective AGAINST one another when their current design is all about being effective WITH one another. Just like the characters in almost any popular co-op game.

The only way to effictively have PvP without a total rebalancing of classes in this game, or, as the OP suggests, spinning it off into what amounts as a secondary game, would be to either do it as group based content, like a co-op game, or to restrict it to characters of the same class, within a certain level range. If there is enough interest in either of those, I would be okay with that. What I'm not okay with is seeing my characters undergo a total rewrite in order to balance it. I don't think a lot of people understand how much work that would generate. I just think that there are a lot of ways to have a competitive aspect in the game without disrupting its existing structure.
 
Likes: XMerlindaX
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
#42
It seems to me that pvp was not introduced for one reason-pvp will increase the number of players online, the servers will not hold up, Otter will not need many players.
The game was not created as a commercial project and it is useless to teach an otter to make money on this game, this game is not created for making money.
I think this game was created as a home project for the practice of skills gamedevelopment.
This is my opinion, don `t know whether it is true or not, but now I think so .:unsure:
Considering this is how they put bread on the table, I am sure they are interested in making a profit. PvP has always been a controversial topic for this particular game - so it is not a surprise that they use caution when weighing the risk of implementing such a system. Sure, it may draw in a crowd of new players, but can it retain them? Will it be worth the expected loss of current players?

I for one have never been explicitly for or against PvP, but would rather have a variety of Co-Op modes with competitive elements included. For example: Survival towers like the Twilight Ladder, Monster Arenas, Realm Bosses etc. Add leaderboards for those who wish to compete for the top scores.

We as a community and as individuals may not always agree with the decisions that are made behind the scenes, but we have to respect the fact that to us this is a game, and to them it is their livelihood. They will do what they feel is best to ensure the financial security of themselves and their family, and is that is something I can understand.
 
Likes: Littlenymph
Forum Moderator
Last edited
#43
It seems to me that pvp was not introduced for one reason-pvp will increase the number of players online, the servers will not hold up, Otter will not need many players.
The game was not created as a commercial project and it is useless to teach an otter to make money on this game, this game is not created for making money.
I think this game was created as a home project for the practice of skills gamedevelopment.
This is my opinion, don `t know whether it is true or not, but now I think so .:unsure:
I'm pretty sure that nothing I could write here now would change your opinion, but let me still officially tell you that pretty much of all of what you wrote is nonsense.

I guess no company would turn down the opportunity of drastically increasing the number of customers, we're no exception, even if this would mean that the current infrastructure would be streched to or maybe even beyond it's limits. That would more or less be a luxury problem and even if that would happen, since our game servers are VMs, we would just add additional resources to them (processor power, RAM, storage, you name it) so that they were able to handle the additional traffic. But to even get to that point, the number of additional players would have to be extremely high, a multiple of what our daily average at the moment is, and from my experience - and I work in the games biz for close to 20 years now - adding PvP to a MMO would not increase the number of players by that much, even if at all.

Also, yes our game is a commercial project, running since 2011 to be exact, and even if we are only a tiny little indie developer and no major AAA studio with pockets full of investor money, I think we have come a long way with our game since then.
 

Giruv

Jack Of All Trades
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
#44
I do enjoy pvp because it is a content that can last very long, it's fun because every time you fight the thing that happened in the fight changes, not like a pve that after a while you'll remember every single thing that the mob will do. On the other hand I don't want PvP in, especially a straight forward duel in V&H, because the combat design is not suited for it and to make a good PvP the Otters have to change a lot of things that it almost the same as making a new game. If the PvP that was going to be introduced is not a straightforward fight between players, more like a contest, a race or team survival It is worth to be considered, and I'd like to discuss about it
 
Forum Moderator
Characters
IrishElf, Rishi, Irish, Elf
Platform
PC
#45
Co-op games are all about the PvP and have become somewhat popular of late. The reason they are classed as 'cooperative play' is that they require you to play within a group of players in order to compete with another group. Despite the fact that they are a form of PvP, few, if any, have any form of dueling. No direct player versus player content. The simple reason for that is because the character classes in those games are designed to be complimentary. You can not build a team of only one class and hope to compete effectively against a team of combined classes. By the same token, those games are not designed to allow one class to duel another class, one on one. While they are complimentary when used together, they are not balanced for individual one on one competition. The balancing aspect of a co-op is in making each class an equal comtributor to the whole of the group. How that class might stack up against any other individual class is not a consideration because individual duels are not an aspect of game play.

The same thing that makes it difficult for a co-op to offer one-on-one PvP applies to V&H. While V&H is not a co-op in the modern sense of the word, they employ the same cooperative element within their class designs. Each class in V&H is capable of solo play but they are at their best when combined with at least one other class. The same design that makes the classes complimentary of one another is at the core of why it would be difficult to establish one-on-one PvP duels. It would require each class to be completely rebalanced in order to be effective AGAINST one another when their current design is all about being effective WITH one another. Just like the characters in almost any popular co-op game.

The only way to effictively have PvP without a total rebalancing of classes in this game, or, as the OP suggests, spinning it off into what amounts as a secondary game, would be to either do it as group based content, like a co-op game, or to restrict it to characters of the same class, within a certain level range. If there is enough interest in either of those, I would be okay with that. What I'm not okay with is seeing my characters undergo a total rewrite in order to balance it. I don't think a lot of people understand how much work that would generate. I just think that there are a lot of ways to have a competitive aspect in the game without disrupting its existing structure.
I really like your description of the mechanics of V&H! Best explanation I've ever seen really! It gives the best overview of what the game is about and why the characters are set up like they are! Also the best explanation of why direct PVP probably won't work!
 
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