Platform
PC
There were a LOT of balancing changes done in the last expansion. Some definitely needed to be made. However, when combined with the loss of house perks, the loss of fusions, the loss of power in stats, AND the buff on monsters, I think things are out of whack.

As most know, I'm not real good with the details that go into making things work properly. Here are my observations - for those who are better at this kind of thing, please post thoughts - I'm always willing to learn - just not good at taking something as minute as mana cost or regen and putting it into the big picture.

I know for holy priests, mana and cooldowns have become a monster in themselves. I simply cannot keep 2 tanks alive anymore, much less get an attack in while doing so. My biggest issue is cooldowns, with mana costs being an issue, but not nearly as much of one. <Granted, it could be tank build causing my issue with cooldowns - I don't have a way to fix that.>

I've also heard that tanks are having a lot of issues maintaining threat. There could be a multitude of factors here - wrong build/playability for tank - cooldown/mana cost for tank - playability for DPS class (ie going full boar which will grab aggro) - DPS class not using threat reduction...Many of the issues are not the tank's fault - he/she has no control on how dps classes play (just like priests have no control on build for tank).

It appears that cooldown rates, AT LEAST for priests (maybe everyone) should be lowered. With house perks gone AND the change in stat values, I think it's too much of a hit. I have a high amount (almost epic amount) of expertise, but it is not enough. I use the trinket that cuts cooldowns in 1/2, but then it wears off and I'm waiting for the cooldown on THAT as well. Unless there's something that I'm missing regarding cooldowns, it needs to be adjusted.

I agree with devs (and many other players who have posted here) that most players were way too OP pre-patch. Changes needed to be made, but I think think the pendulum swung too far and needs to come back a bit.

Anybody else have specific suggestions to make things a bit more palatable? <<put it back is not an acceptable response - changes WERE necessary>
 

Pookey

Hunter
Characters
Pookey2
Platform
PC
There were a LOT of balancing changes done in the last expansion. Some definitely needed to be made. However, when combined with the loss of house perks, the loss of fusions, the loss of power in stats, AND the buff on monsters, I think things are out of whack.

As most know, I'm not real good with the details that go into making things work properly. Here are my observations - for those who are better at this kind of thing, please post thoughts - I'm always willing to learn - just not good at taking something as minute as mana cost or regen and putting it into the big picture.

I know for holy priests, mana and cooldowns have become a monster in themselves. I simply cannot keep 2 tanks alive anymore, much less get an attack in while doing so. My biggest issue is cooldowns, with mana costs being an issue, but not nearly as much of one. <Granted, it could be tank build causing my issue with cooldowns - I don't have a way to fix that.>

I've also heard that tanks are having a lot of issues maintaining threat. There could be a multitude of factors here - wrong build/playability for tank - cooldown/mana cost for tank - playability for DPS class (ie going full boar which will grab aggro) - DPS class not using threat reduction...Many of the issues are not the tank's fault - he/she has no control on how dps classes play (just like priests have no control on build for tank).

It appears that cooldown rates, AT LEAST for priests (maybe everyone) should be lowered. With house perks gone AND the change in stat values, I think it's too much of a hit. I have a high amount (almost epic amount) of expertise, but it is not enough. I use the trinket that cuts cooldowns in 1/2, but then it wears off and I'm waiting for the cooldown on THAT as well. Unless there's something that I'm missing regarding cooldowns, it needs to be adjusted.

I agree with devs (and many other players who have posted here) that most players were way too OP pre-patch. Changes needed to be made, but I think think the pendulum swung too far and needs to come back a bit.

Anybody else have specific suggestions to make things a bit more palatable? <<put it back is not an acceptable response - changes WERE necessary>
I agree with all this. My little shaman was doing great til I hit mid 30s. Then the cool down time on my only non melee attack about did me in. I died five or six times in Aberdeen which is something I never had an issue with any other toon. Of course that was before last expansion. My warrior and hunter have done four rebirths so can’t count their time at lower levels either. Going to work on build and see if I can fix this. On another note I have never killed 85 elders and am thinking with all the player input that I will be putting that off for quite awhile lol
 

Kitty the Hunter

Huntress
Platform
PC
Something needed to change but it WAS NOT COMBAT. what needed changing was the huge disparity between builds. Looking at your build I can see why you thought combat was too easy, and I'm sure you ran with players who felt the same way reinforcing your opinion. What needs to be addressed is how OP some players are now compared to others without costing them to make huge sacrifices after putting so much time and effort into their builds. that would be unfair.

We need to look at gear, builds, and side content that OP players can enjoy without making everyone else become OP too.
 
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Chamois

Citizen
Platform
PC
I've also heard that tanks are having a lot of issues maintaining threat. There could be a multitude of factors here - wrong build/playability for tank - cooldown/mana cost for tank - playability for DPS class (ie going full boar which will grab aggro) - DPS class not using threat reduction...Many of the issues are not the tank's fault - he/she has no control on how dps classes play (just like priests have no control on build for tank).
As a dps player I think at least part of the problem is the tanks are not being given enough power to hold threat. No, dps cannot go all out but they really should be responsible for a large part in killing the mob, therefore standing to the back and auto hitting is not helping the group. I can only use a real hit every 4th or 5th time I hit and then only certain hits to keep from stealing the aggro. I don't feel very useful that way. Threat reduction doesn't last forever either, and often isn't enough. I really feel for the tanks and healers lately for they seem to have sole responsibility to kill everything while the rest of us stand out of the way.
 
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Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
I agree with devs (and many other players who have posted here) that most players were way too OP pre-patch. Changes needed to be made, but I think think the pendulum swung too far and needs to come back a bit.
This what describe Earth and Sea update for me, too many changes happened at once. Players have established some habits and the update force them to change their habits. This update also force classes to become more specified, the dps class able to do more damage, but at the same time become easier to die. Player that don't try to adapt and change will get a lot of trouble. For players I recommend to craft more consumables such as breakfast, dinner (hp buff), drams, mana pots, etc. Those consumables help a lot, especially breakfast, it's not hard to make and give a good all round buff

From my experience most death now caused by mob that do magic damage. Monster that do magic damage cannot be blocked(unless you have spurring jolt) and deal significantly higher damage than the one that do physical while having the same hp and armor as the other mob that have normal damage. My suggestion is to make mob that do higher damage should be easier to kill (like pyrron stone mages or the gargoyle that have high attack speed) or just tone down those magic damage.

I've also heard that tanks are having a lot of issues maintaining threat. There could be a multitude of factors here - wrong build/playability for tank - cooldown/mana cost for tank - playability for DPS class (ie going full boar which will grab aggro) - DPS class not using threat reduction...Many of the issues are not the tank's fault - he/she has no control on how dps classes play (just like priests have no control on build for tank).
I haven't saw lightning warrior having trouble maintaining threat this update unless the different in built is big, they got a big buff this update. Tho for fury warriors it become really hard for them to tank now because the other dps classes do way more damage now. When doing dungeon, in the past when there are more than 6 mobs attacking the tank the other will just do nothing, now if there are more than 6 attacking the tank the other will more likely target the second threat holder, which might looks like tank losing aggro.

I know for holy priests, mana and cooldowns have become a monster in themselves. I simply cannot keep 2 tanks alive anymore, much less get an attack in while doing so. My biggest issue is cooldowns, with mana costs being an issue, but not nearly as much of one. <Granted, it could be tank build causing my issue with cooldowns - I don't have a way to fix that.>
I don't feel there's a problem with the holy priest cooldown, but the mana is an issue tho, because holy priest don't have a reliable way to gain mana
 
Platform
PC
I haven't saw lightning warrior having trouble maintaining threat this update unless the different in built is big, they got a big buff this update. Tho for fury warriors it become really hard for them to tank now because the other dps classes do way more damage now.

I don't feel there's a problem with the holy priest cooldown, but the mana is an issue tho, because holy priest don't have a reliable way to gain mana
I know that one warrior is supposed to be tank and the other dps. Maybe part of the issue is that they still try to hybrid or do both. A true tank isn't going to do much damage, but the threat should be unquestioned...They also will not require a lot of healing - which is where I really notice my cooldown issue. If a DPS warrior is what is tanking, they would need a lot more healing, which could be what I'm seeing. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of fixing this - as whoever says they're tanking is who I am healing.
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
Really I think some tweaks are in order. I don't mind most of the changes, they are mostly livable.

But the biggest issue most are having in the long reset time on Grave bolt. So many are upset they cannot bounty in zones they were in pre-update. The fact they can't pull a bounty or mob from a group has caused most (including my toons) to die repeatedly and we hear in world chat... "It's not fun anymore". In fact people are frustrated and upset. After that the reduction in priest heals has made it difficult to keep players alive, it taps out our mana pretty fast.
Lightning warriors still lose aggro to wizards, hunters and now shaman.
 

SKAAVVEEK

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
I could be way off the mark here, but here are my thoughts on the matter anyways.. :)

Prior to this patch, this is how I feel the state of combat difficulty was based on an individual's build quality...

The red, yellow and green lines indicates the difficulty threshold for a specific zone or type of content.
  • Red: Easy
  • Yellow: Medium
  • Green: Hard
The blue line indicates the player's difficulty in relation to the zone's difficulty. (How hard does the player find the zone?)

The Y Axis is difficulty. As the numbers go further up, that means difficulty is increasing
The X Axis is build quality. As we move from left to right, the quality of the player's build is increasing

Note that the 'difficulty' metric is based only on numbers. This does not account for mechanics in any way shape or form. It represents how hard the player hits, and how hard the player is being hit in the simplest way possible.

3124
Prior to the update, those with lower end builds experienced a difficulty between medium and hard. Average builds had a fairly medium level of difficulty. High quality builds had a very easy time. This is why some balancing needed to be done. To tone down how easy content was for the super-powered players.

Here is what the update did:
3126
So now those with lower and average quality builds have an extremely difficult time running zones. Those with higher end builds are about in between average and hard. Notice how the player line was not morphed or balanced in any way. It was simply shifted upwards. The issue we had was how much easier content was for top builds compared to lower end builds. That problem was not fixed! It's the same margin as before. The only difference now is that high end builds are in a decent place in terms of difficulty while the lower and average builds are having way too hard of a time.

This is what happens in blanket balancing. Rather than modifying the higher and lower ends of the spectrum, the entire line was shifted upwards. The game was made harder across the board for everyone equally, when it needed to target everyone in different ways.

This is what I believe should have been done:

3127

Now you might be looking at this graph and wondering what exactly is supposed to be so revolutionary. Nothing really, but there are a few key details that are important to note.

First, take a look at the first graph vs the third graph. Notice how the shape of the player's bend is different? Rather than bending backwards, it now bends forwards. In the old system when a player had a higher build quality their power would grow exponentially. You would see this often where specific top-tier players were miles and miles ahead of the rest of the group in the charts. That is what needed to be toned down. The solution to this would be to make it harder to reach those crazy high power levels. In the first graph, the difference between a high quality and average build was greater than the difference between an average and low quality build. In the proposed graph, the difference is smaller.

Basically the goal is to narrow the player performance gap. The difference in effectiveness between the low and high quality builds. If you have a gigantic margin like in the first and second graph, it is almost impossible to balance a game. This is what results:

(Graph 1) How can content be doable for low quality builds without being downright easy for high quality builds? It can't

(Graph 2)
How can content be challenging for high quality builds without being downright impossible for low / average builds? It can't

Graph 3 on the other hand shows that content is still tougher for lower end builds (but definitely possible), while being moderately difficult for high quality builds. Those with better builds still have it easier - that will always be true. A system cannot be made in which those with better gear are less effective compared to those with worse gear. It would be counter-intuitive. The difference is that those with average / lower quality builds still are able to fight effectively as well.

The direction of the graph (downwards) has to remain constant. The slope of the graph is what can be modified. The earth and sea patch didn't change the slope as far as I'm aware. It just shifted the entire line upwards. Everything is that much harder for everyone equally.

So, how does one modify this slope?
  • If you're naked, it should be easy to obtain a low quality build.
    • The jump in performance from naked to low is a HUGE jump
  • From a low quality build it should be fairly easy to obtain an average build
    • The jump in performance from low to average is fairly average (smaller than the previous jump)
  • From an average quality build it should be hard to obtain a high end build
    • The jump in performance from an average to high quality build is small
  • Notice how the benefits from jumping tiers decremented rather than multiplied
    • This is so they don't become overpowered like in Graph 1
So which rabbit hole does this lead us down? In the end it ends up at the gear system. That is our prime culprit. The gear system needs to be modified. Enemy difficulty needs to be toned down a bit as well (health / damage).

Now you might be thinking, "If those with higher end builds still don't have a challenging time in your proposed Graph 3, then what's to stop them from demanding things become harder still!"

My answer to this is mechanics. Balance comes from inflating and deflating numbers. True difficulty has to come from mechanics. Enemies that have patterns to learn, abilities to understand etc.
 

Bored dude

Citizen
Last edited
Just an old vnh player giving his 2cents.
My experience withlightning warriors is that a warrior with the right feats should never die..
While people may question how does that work.? Lightning warriors have a feat that allows them to block and +25% parry(totaling 45% block) and a ultimate feat that makes them invulnerable for like 15 seconds. I recommend all tanks to build offensive ratings to build more threat and boost mana reduction/expertise(cds) and you can cycle the parry feat and invulnerability feat as long as there is a mob. There is also a warcry build I used to use specifically for dungeons for infinite mana. If you are dying as a lightning warrior in a dungeon scene it goes down to feat play ,positioning and awareness.
I’m still guessing it holds true for this patch.

Another pro tip is that when you used the invulnerability feat block still procs so you can stand in the ocean of fire for the first boss in the dungeon for example and reduce cds. Building more threat on warriors require more dmg.

With the same strategy I’ve been able to solo the three key masters in the first dungeon as well as soloing the final boss without moving.
 
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Sudaki

Citizen
Characters
Sudaki, Hamba, Eola
Platform
Android, PC
There were a LOT of balancing changes done in the last expansion. Some definitely needed to be made. However, when combined with the loss of house perks, the loss of fusions, the loss of power in stats, AND the buff on monsters, I think things are out of whack.

As most know, I'm not really good with the details that go into making things work properly. Here are my observations - for those who are better at this kind of thing, please post thoughts - I'm always willing to learn - just not good at taking something as minute as mana cost or regen and putting it into the big picture.

I know for holy priests, mana and cooldowns have become a monster in themselves. I simply cannot keep 2 tanks alive anymore, much less get an attack in while doing so. My biggest issue is cooldowns, with mana costs being an issue, but not nearly as much of one. <Granted, it could be tank build causing my issue with cooldowns - I don't have a way to fix that.>

I've also heard that tanks are having a lot of issues maintaining threat. There could be a multitude of factors here - wrong build/playability for tank - cooldown/mana cost for tank - playability for DPS class (ie going full boar which will grab aggro) - DPS class not using threat reduction...Many of the issues are not the tank's fault - he/she has no control over how DPS classes play (just like priests have no control on build for tank).

It appears that cooldown rates, AT LEAST for priests (maybe everyone) should be lowered. With house perks gone AND the change in stat values, I think it's too much of a hit. I have a high amount (almost epic amount) of expertise, but it is not enough. I use the trinket that cuts cooldowns in 1/2, but then it wears off and I'm waiting for the cooldown on THAT as well. Unless there's something that I'm missing regarding cooldowns, it needs to be adjusted.

I agree with devs (and many other players who have posted here) that most players were way too OP pre-patch. Changes needed to be made, but I think think the pendulum swung too far and needs to come back a bit.

Anybody else has specific suggestions to make things a bit more palatable? <<put it back is not an acceptable response - changes WERE necessary>
I agree the balancing needed to be done, I can tell you I have no issue with threat and I don't think you should be healing 2 tanks, Just the main Tank. The 2nd is what I would refer to as the secondary Tank and isn't getting the Big single shot hits maybe splash damage here and there. If a tank cannot handle a bit of warm water without a healer, were they a tank, to begin with? Mana cost hmm whip up some LVL 3 mana potions to use solely for Mana regen in combat. I have literally done The last boss in Ladder without my healer and being the Highest damaging player. I didn't die I didn't drop aggro and I don't think mana was an issue too much. I agree though with you on that I feel like I was shorted more change then wanted to pay but I mean whoever wants to be Weakened after making all the gains they may have made. The house perks were a huge blow yes. I think they did really good there though. I feel as if Lucky finds are more common then even with the house perks. Supplies as well. I couldn't even imagine how hard it is to balance a game like this. They have to make it fair to the new players and can't take to much of the work we did from us but they have to also keep us higher Level players from seeming out of reach to new players. That would just cause more to leave than stay. I am not sure there is really a right way or the best way to keep everyone happy. Also, I feel a lot of people don't use or see the Attack rating and Defence ratings as a good basis to go off of. I feel very strongly in the fact that I don't see a game developer adding a chart like that for it to lead you right off a cliff. Epic stats in my eyes are only good to raise so you get the bonus for having a heroic amount anymore and your gaining that stat sure but you will not gain a better bonus then Heroic Build another up and make your characters more well rounded and robust in a wider range of situations from running solo to running dungeons with a group or being the event zone with 100 people and in a fight for the long haul. Also in tje end any power they took from us Just double up your Elder soul there you go haha.
 

Joleen

Great Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Kavita, Katona
Platform
Android, PC
I just returned to the game and everything is fine in the game until the toon hits level 30 - I couldn't agree with Daim more. I'm an experienced, multi-platform gamer and I felt like doing the insta-quit yesterday. The Sailor's End mess is worse than it was before I went on game-vacay and it's impossible for my little shaman even with one rebirth. The mobs gang-bang and it just FEELS wrong; it's as if you level up to 30 then suddenly lose several levels without having changed anything major.
 
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